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KitraeMember
Well, they do say that now
KitraeMemberQuote:So after your super post, we can say that Billy use a 77 Op AMP Big Muff. I’ve finded this message on a website:There were only some 2000 of these circuits made; Billy Corgan has a couple, so you can hear them all over Smashing Pumpkins recordings.
I emailed that guy to ask where he got his info from, thinking he may have an article or interview I did not have, but no luck. He said he got his info from my website! The info goes in circles sometimes.
There is the possibility that someone took a bad second edition V3 apart and replaced the pots and circuit with those from a later version. It does happen. I bought a V3 and V4 from the same guy on ebay. He took them apart for his ebay photos and put them back together with knobs and boards swapped for each Muff by accident. I have also seen Muff’s comped together from parts of other Muffs that did not work. That’s very rare though.
KitraeMemberQuote:ok, I believe that for you it is all about the sound, but can I suggest to you that you are in a very small minority? …. and the reason they sell for high prices on ebay is due in a big part to vintage guitar equipment collectors and investors that are not buying them for the sound.……If EHX did re-issue them, why would they need to have ‘the exact graphics and original case’ like you suggest for them to be a success if it’s only the sound that people are buying them for? … You know why!!!!! looks, looks, looks.
I don’t think I am in a small minority at all. I’m sure many people love the looks, but I hear from people every single day through my Big Muff Page website. Several hundred this year. I have never talked to anyone who bought, is looking to buy, or collects vintage Muffs simply because they like the looks. Not a single one. Questions and our discussions are almost always centered around components and sound, then about differences in versions. The only time looks come up is regarding identification of versions. The only Muff I have ever heard people talk about how cool they look are the 1990s Sovteks.
I would also add that practically every time a vintage RH, V3, or Triangle goes up on ebay I get several emails from people looking to buy their first vintage Muff asking my opinion. Usually I get asked what questions they need to ask the seller regarding the sound, if mods have been made, or if all components look original. They don’t want some modded or defective Muff that won’t sound right. If people were just buying for looks I would likely not be getting all this email.
But my point was, a reissue should not only sound as close to an original as is possible on a modern production pedal, but it should LOOK like the original it is supposed to be replicating. Imagine the Dynacomp script reissue with the original sound in a completely different enclosure with no script, or a Rat reissue with the original chip in a smaller modern Rat II box. I’m buying it for the vintage sound, but I would much prefer it look like the original vintage dyna, or Rat. It’s all part of the mojo around a vintage pedal. A reissue in a modern nano box will not cut it. If EHX tried to market that it would fail.
KitraeMemberQuote:Quote:I am glad someone agrees with me! The new Big Muffs just do not compete with the older ones!based on what? 😆
……..all this misty eyed nostalgia it all well and good, but lets face it the reason those old muff’s fetch what they do has nothing to do with how they sound. Do you really think EHX have forgotten how to make a big muff?
As someone who owns many vintage Big Muffs, I can tell you it has nothing to do with the looks. It’s all about the sound. My favorite looking Muff is actually the current V3 look. I like all of the Big Muffs, but the sound of a V1 or V2 is like night and day to a V9 reissue.
Reissues would be interesting, but it is not possible to make a production pedal that will have the same sound as a vintage one without the old components and transistors, and they are no longer available. EHX would have to pick a particular Triangle and RH example to copy as well, since the tones vary so much from unit to unit, and they would have to use modern components like the cloners do.
Basically what you would have would be a BYOC Large Beaver in a vintage style Big Muff box. That won’t have the mojo a vintage Muff tone has, but a BYOC gets 90-95% there anyway, which is good enough for most people, especially people who have never owned a vintage Muff, but want one. I don’t think it would hurt the collectible market at all since those guys will just claim the new ones don’t have the sound since they use new components. I think it would be a good idea for EH, and I know it would be successful. They would have to release them in the old style boxes with the exact graphics to do it right. Some minor change on each to make them externally different from the originals would be good, like an LED, and an internal change like true bypass, so EH could claim they are “better” than the originals.
KitraeMemberThey will sound different from amp to amp, and with different guitars. My BMTW sounds its best with my strat through my Fender Twin, not so much in my Marshall. My Les Paul with P90s sound good with the BMPTW in either amp. I have a little Marshall practice amp that does not sound good with either guitar and the BMPTW.
KitraeMemberGilmour’s main Muff was a Ram’s Head. He used the Civil War Muff for the Pulse tour, and he has used a Pete Cornish P-1 live, but supposedly that is an exact clone of Gilmour’s Ram’s head for road use. Phil Taylor, David’s gear guy, said this about his RH –
“I introduced David to the Electro-Harmonix Big Muff Pi in 1974. He liked it, and he has continued to use one ever since. David has tried many of the different incarnations and models over the years, but his original has often been preferred for most things. Finding another that sounds the same is not easy, I have even placed six in a row that externally appeared to be identical to his original, and they all sounded different. Often, when you look inside, some components and values are different…”RH Muffs do vary a lot from unit to unit, and components and values are different from unit to unit. A DG Muff sounds like a good idea, but using modern components to make a production version sound like his original with vintage components, I’m sure would not satisfy David, nor anyone who bought one. It would not be any better than buying a decent Ram’s Head clone like the BYOC Large Beaver. Also, for $400 you could just buy a real Ram’s Head on ebay. You may have to go through a few to get one that sounds good.
By the way, the best Muff boosts for Gilmour tones are the BK Butler made Tube Drivers or the Colorsound Overdriver. A modded Boss BD-2 also works good, as well as Overdriver clones like the Vintage FX Colordrive and Throbak Overdrive Boost. A Tube Screamer does not work very well. I have to agree with dmc777 above though. I think Gilmour used boosters when playing live a lot, but probably not in the studio. I get that tone with a Ram’s Head Muff all by itself, or with a compressor up front. A really good Muff needs no booster.
I have some demo clips here of different gear to get decent Gilmour tones.
http://www.kitrae.net/music/Music_mp3.htmlKitraeMemberQuote:Quote:If you want Daka-Ware for a vintage restoration though, Daka-Ware was the brand name for products produced by Davies Molding. Davies Molding is still going, and they do still make some parts you might find useful.
Looks like they still make these:
yeah, those ones I linked to are genuine Daka-ware made by Davies.
I’m pretty sure those are the exact knobs EH used for the reissues the first year or so they were made. Seems there were several companies that made the original V2-5 Muff knobs in addition to Davies as there are at least four different injection molds. Here are a few of them.
KitraeMemberQuote:Hello Friends.
There are some V3 big muffs that contains the transistor version inside. The Circuit is a 1980 4 transistor NPN version of the big muff. This one is really close to the actual USA version with minor differences.Martinkenz, actually all V3 Big Muffs are transistor circuits. They were made from around 1976-1978. Op-amp version 4 and V5 tone bypass Muffs were made from 1978 until around 1981. From then until E-H closed its doors in 1984, only the transistor tone bypass Muff was made, version 6.
They all more or less looked the same outside, with some minor differences in the graphics. All of them are detailed in the Big Muff Page in my signature, below.
KitraeMemberQuote:haha no problem mate..
and also u can check the songs labels on the pedalboard too
Pug Wound cashcar..etc..my guesses are that the Corgan’s muff is a V3 4 Transistor Version. I’m gonna mod my bigmuff with the schematics of those versions i have.
Either a V3 or V4 will be very close in SD tone when doing rhythm stuff. Are those your photos?
I just noticed when posting over at the Gear Forum that the tone knob is almost at 11:30 in your pedal board photo, past the word OFF. A stock V3 pot won’t go that far because it is mounted upside down on the V3. It should stop at the “O”. So two marks against it being a V3.
KitraeMemberAdded a few updates.
KitraeMemberQuote:Pictures of the 3rd issue bigmuff that corgan used on the machina tourActually, if you look closely, the Muff in those pictures is the same Muff pictured in the recent Blog. The scratches are all the identical (though the recent photo has a few more), especially the big chip in the red line above the letter M. “AC” is visible on the top, indicating this is a V3 or V4. You can see it if you alter the brightness and contrast of the photo, below.
You can also see Billy’s white tick marks showing the same settings as the knobs in his recent photo. The actual knobs in your pedal board photo are not set to those marks, but it looks like the board has not been set up completely yet either. But look closely at the tone knob, It’s almost at 12 o’clock. You can’t do that on a stock V3 since the tone pot is upside down. So from the two photos we have two pots that don’t jive with the V3 pot sweep, just the V4.
Interesting. Are you sure those photos are from the Machina tour? (EDIT – Never mind. I see Billy’s Cenobite skirt! It’s Machina)
KitraeMemberQuote:I was watching a few midtown videos on youtube and came across this music video and i think i see an old big muff pi at 3-4 seconds. not sure if it is though. can anyone tell if it is?That’s a Sovtek “Civil War” Big Muff from the early 1990s.
KitraeMemberQuote:People should just quit trying to sound like so and so and find their own sound and pedals via experimentation, thats my two cents anyways!That would all depend on what a person was looking for from other peoples gear and tone. This is more about puzzle solving for me, as I am a collector of Muff info and don’t play SP songs. I got my own sound over twenty years ago when I started playing guitar and when I had a band (all original songs) and could care less about sounding like anyone else. These days I look at figuring out other peoples exact gear and tones as a puzzle that is enormous fun to solve, especially in the Muff arena.
Since you bring up cloning others people sounds…some people who just play cover songs, or are in tribute bands, are looking to sound as much like a certain artists as possible, and want to have the exact gear that particular artist had. They may have no desire, or skill, to create their own sound. Nothing wrong with that. Then there are the majority of novice home players and beginners who do this as a hobby and desire to have a certain “sound” as a starting point. Many have no frame of reference for “their” own sound and learn by emulating others. A small group of those will take those tonal influences and one day have their own sound that spins out of it, and hopefully play in a band. Evey major guitarist I have ever listened to has cited a certain artists they grew up with as people they emulated when they were younger, though none of them sounded much like those influences once they became successful. Everyone takes their cues from all the experience playing and influences from listening to others, then your brain mixes that all together and spits out your own thing. So I encourage beginners to emulate and learn from all of their favorite artists.
KitraeMemberFor Siamese Dream Billy Corgan likely used a stock V4 op-amp Big Muff, based on the graphics and sustain knob position, through a Marshall JCM 800 100 watt head loaded with KT88 China tubes. Almost all the heavy (Siamese Dream) tracks were recorded through this, solos included.
I have a pic of Billy’s V4 Muff and some quotes from him about it in the V4 Muff section here.
http://www.kitrae.net/music/big_muff_history.htmlKitraeMemberNice. I’m still looking for a three knob Foxey Lady for my collection.
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