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gvelascoParticipant
Fantastic! Thank you. Now I can add that to my pure analogue wish list.
gvelascoParticipantQuote:So, I would need EH pedals for reverb, phase shift and looper, plus quality interconnects. That starts to get into the price realm of a couple of the all-in-one solutions.That’s true. That’s why many people go with an all-in-one solution, but they do have their disadvantages. I won’t get into the disadvantages of AIO vs. individual pedals. That’s outside the scope of this discussion, but I’ll mention a couple of things.
First, many pros who have the finances to purchase a top of the line AIO solution, not to save money but for convenience, DON’T. You look at their pedal boards and most of them have multiple pedals whether they just have a few, or many. There are many reasons for this, but just consider that going with individual pedals is clearly not a BAD idea because many (most?) people end up doing it.
But, let’s address the price issue. One important advantage with individual pedals is that you can start off with a small set and add other things over time without giving up the quality and flexibility of the individual effects. As you already mentioned, you can probably get by with the spring reverb in your amp. Is it a real spring reverb? If so, that’s actually the holy grail of many digital reverbs, including the Holy Grail, hence the name. If you have a real analogue spring reverb tank, then you should be pretty happy with that. Even if it’s not, you can at least live with it until you can budget something else.
Still addressing price, the EHX Nano pedals, like the Small Stone (Nano Chassis) ( https://www.ehx.com/products/small-stone ) and the Nano Looper 360 ( https://www.ehx.com/products/nano-looper-360 ) are very affordable pedals that provide the most important core functionalities that you need. More deluxe versions give you more control and flexibility, but the Nano versions give you the ability to dial in the most popular and generally useful settings.
The Nano Small Stone is selling for $71.60 on Sweetwater.com and I’ve seen them gently used for around $50 with free shipping on Ebay. The Nano Looper 360 is selling new for $91 on Sweetwater.com and I just bought an open box demo for $75 with free shipping on Ebay. You can find deals on these if you’re a bit patient. So, really it comes down to spending maybe $150 or less for the initial setup which will give you what you want and you’ll be able to expand it after that.
If you have a real spring reverb that you’re happy with and you still have money left in your budget, then you can consider getting a Memory Toy delay instead of a reverb. That would be the next pedal I would recommend – a simple analogue delay.
As for trying them out, that’s always the best way, but Electro-Harmonix has lots of videos on their pages demonstrating their products, and you can also see many third party videos on YouTube comparing their products to each other and to other manufacturers products.
gvelascoParticipantIf they made something really simple with just two sounds that you could trigger with your feet, like a bass drum and a snare, or a bass drum and a shaker, etc. That would be really useful.
Basically and electronic stomp box. There are lots “stomp boxes” out there which are basically a wooden box with a transducer in it that you stomp on to make a bass drum sound. Some of these are very expensive, but even those are often disappointing.
There are a couple of electronic options out there too, but they tend to be expensive and limited to just one sound at a time. Most buscars or solo guitar player would like to be able to play the bass drum with one foot and the accent beat instrument with the other foot. Synthesized rather than sampled is fine. It’s still better than just about anything else.
Being able to select from multiple bass sounds like cajon, synth, drum, etc, and multiple accents sounds like clap, tambourine, snare, shaker, etc, would be VERY cool.
Combine that with a looper or real time sequencer dedicated to just those two sounds would make this a killer product I think.
gvelascoParticipantI would love to see a really nasty 8 bit pedal from EHX, maybe with a PLL synth too.
gvelascoParticipantThis concept can be generalized even more into droning or “pads” which are very popular now in certain types of music like worship music. There are several “Pad” apps for smartphones and tables that allow the guitar player to choose the key for the drone.
Many early primitive instruments included sympathetic or droning strings or pipes which would hold a single note, often the 5th of the scale, or harmonic interval 1-5, while the player played over the drones.
Bagpipes and uilleann pipes included drones. The drone notes on the uilleann pipes can be changed on the fly. Indian music uses the tanpura or a shruti box. The shruti box can be changed on the fly by opening and closing valves covering the reeds.
Many contemporary worship leaders use “pads” which are just synthesizers droning on 1-5 or 1-5-7 etc. fading in and out with lots of ambiance – reverb, delay, modulation.
I think a general purpose droning pedal, especially focusing on the more contemporary use of droning, like maybe automatically sensing the key, would have a large market. Just have a look at how many people are paying for the pad apps in the app stores.
gvelascoParticipantQuote:I also need a sort of gentle, slow “swirling” effect.Gentle, slow, “swirling” effects are generically referred to as “modulation”. This includes
tremolo – a cyclical change in volume.
vibrato – a cyclical change in pitch.
phase shifting – a cyclical change in the phase of the signal, like an ambulance approaching then leaving.
flanging – simulates pressing on the flange of one tape reel while playing back two unison tracks.
chorus – straight sound blended with a pitch shifted sound to make it sound like two instruments playing.
Usually, when you’re hearing a “swirling” sound, it’s either phase shifting, flanging, or chorus. The earliest and still most popular “swirling” sound is phase shifting because it’s more subtle and doesn’t involve any detuning. Flanging, especially after distortion which makes it even more pronounced, is very popular in hard rock and heavy metal. All of these effects can also be used with acoustic guitar, but none of them seem to be as useful, or at least as popular, with acoustic and hollowbody electrics as phase shifting. All can be used with vocals and other instruments, but again they seem to be a bit much, except for maybe a light chorus for other acoustic instruments like voice. So, again, I would say that a decent phase shifter is a good place to start experimenting.
Quote:Not to be impolite on this board but there is another stereo product that would allow to clamp/sustain a chord with the reverb/swirl effect and then play single note lines on top of that. Mucho dinero however.Yes, that’s always the issue isn’t it?
You’ll need TWO EHX effects to do what you’re looking for, the first to create the swirling sound. We’ve already talked about that. The second, to “clamp/sustain” or hold the drone (that’s what a sustained chord is anyway right?) underneath your solo.
EHX has a couple of solutions for setting up a drone. The first, which is specifically designed for that is the Freeze. You press it and it holds that sound until you release it. You CAN set it to “Latch” so that it will hold the sound until you press it again. It’s basically taking a few milliseconds sample and “looping” it over and over again until you tell it to stop. To use it you would need to set up the swirling AFTER the Freeze because the Freeze captures the sound it hears when you step on it. If you set up your swirl before it, it will freeze the swirl when you step on it. In other words, it will stop swirling. Your solo guitar would still be swirling, but your frozen guitar would be “frozen” in mid swirl.
The other EHX solution for setting a drone is one of their loopers. The 360 is the least expensive. It’s the easiest to use, and it does what you need. With a “looper” you can set up drones like with the Freeze, but you can also loop entire chord changes – up to 6 minutes with the 360. Using a looper takes a few more clicks and it will take a bit of practice to set up, but it give you the option of capturing the swirl and things like gentle, slow, arpeggiation of the background chords. You would be able to set up the drone, then change effects for your lead. For instance, you could capture the swirling drone, then turn off the swirl and turn on a delay (echo) for the lead. Loopers have many other uses as well – rhythm machine, practice, effects testing, etc.
So, my amended recommendation is a Holy Grail (or related) reverb, a Small Stone (or related) phase shifter, and a Nano Looper 360. If you think you can get by with your existing spring reverb, the do the phase shifter and the looper.
gvelascoParticipantQuote:Obviously, I can’t (and don’t want to anyway) reproduce their sound exactly. I’m looking to create a suggestion of some of the ethereal background sound of the record, possibly using stereo.Since you play solo (mostly), you use jazz voicings, and you “don’t want to” reproduce the sound exactly, I would recommend the old faithfuls – reverb and phase shifter in that order. You might already have reverb on your amp, but you might like something that allows you to select between a spring, plate, or room reverb. Of course, the Holy Grail and pretty much any of its relatives are the go-tos for many top musicians, even if they can afford something much more expensive.
Of course the Small Stone phase shifter is legendary. EHX doesn’t make a stereo phase shifter, but they’re so cheap that you can buy two of them and split the signal into them, or you can just split the signal and run the dry to one channel and pure phase shifted signal into the other channel.
If you want a stronger modulation effect, you could go with an Electric Mistress flanger. They do make a stereo version of that that includes a stereo chorus circuit as well.
But, I think if you have the opportunity to audition them side by side you’ll probably find, like most other people, that phasing is more generally useful than flanging. Flanging is a “harder”, less subtle effect. Chorus is nice, but it does involve a pitch shift. Phasing creates no pitch shift.
If this is your introduction to guitar effects, I think you can’t go wrong with a good classic phase shifter, then start moving out from there.
gvelascoParticipantQuote:Hi,
Is this a digital or an analog pedal?It is possible to make a pure analogue clean(ish) octave down circuit like the Electro-Harmonix Octave Multiplexer. These can only be monophonic and even the very best ones ever made can be “glitchy”, meaning that they don’t track perfectly and will jump between octaves. They tend to have a sweet spot and tend to work better with low notes. Being monophonic and working better with low notes makes these popular with bass players.
It is possible to make a DIRTY NOT CLEAN, octave up circuit like the Electro-Harmonix Octavix. I don’t think the Octavix is pure analogue, but it is possible to make the circuit purely analogue. These can also only be monophonic (mostly) and they also tend to have a sweet spot which is about the top third of an electric guitar fretboard. You can play double note parts, but you quickly get harmonic interference that sounds like ring modulation.
Some companies combine the clean octave down with the dirty octave up. The Electro-Harmonix Micro Synthesizer does this. You can blend in an analogue octave down, an analogue octave up, the original signal, and a “square wave” which is really just a massively clipped signal – basically distortion. You can then apply filters to them. It’s all analogue and gives you both an octave up and an octave down.
To get anything other than an octave with analogue circuitry, you need to use a phase-locked loop (PLL). This DOES NOT give you the original sound raised or lowered by some arbitrary interval. It allows you to control the pitch of a generated tone, like an analogue synthesizer, with the pitch of an input, like a guitar. So you can have a synthesizer that plays along with you at some arbitrary interval that you can set. It doesn’t sound like a guitar harmonizing with you. It sounds like a synthesizer harmonizing with you. Earthquaker Devices Data Corrupter is all analogue PLL INTERVAL up and/or down device that does this.
If you want GLITCHLESS and CLEAN octave up and/or down, the only way to go is DIGITAL. The Electro-Harmonix Micro POG is a clean octave up/down machine. It is digital. The digital circuit allows algorithms that are smart enough to handle chords and make them sound good by preventing harmonic interference. The Micro POG only gives you octaves, but they are clean, they track perfectly, and they are POLYPHONIC.
The Pitchfork is kind of like the Micro POG, but for any arbitrary pitch. It’s also clean, glitchless, and polyphonic. It’s also DIGITAL. Why would they make both a Micro POG AND a Pitchfork? The algorithms are slightly different. The sounds you get when you mix the intervals together is slightly different. Some people prefer the tracking and tone of the POG and some people prefer the Pitchfork. Most of the reviews I’ve seen comparing the blended octave up AND down polyphonic response or just octave up of the POG and the Pitchfork give the POG a slight edge in terms of tone. People who have both seem to think that there’s room for both on their pedal board. People who choose between the two tend to pick the Pitchfork because it’s much more flexible.
Both of these (and their relatives), by necessity, are DIGITAL circuits.
gvelascoParticipantQuote:…I got the Pitch Fork recently.Congratulations.
Quote:I am wondering about power along other pedals in the board.There are cheap solutions and good solutions. The cheap solutions SOMETIMES work. The expensive solutions MIGHT also give you problems if you don’t set them up right, but they are more likely to work well.
With ALL pedals, the best solution is for each pedal to be powered by its own recommended, dedicated, tested, supported power supply. This might sound like a scam for manufacturers to sell power supplies, but the fact is that they can only GUARANTEE that their pedals will work properly and not be damaged by power supplies that they have tested. It’s unreasonable to expect manufacturers to test their pedals with every possible cheap power supply that someone might buy. There are minor differences in power supplies that might make it seem like it is working, but it might actually be sub-optimal. For instance, the plug might have an outer diameter that is just a bit too small, or an inner diameter that is just a bit too big. These can cause intermittent contact problems or premature wear of the jack. Third party power supplies might be the correct voltage, but might not be supplying the correct current, or they might not be shielded and grounded properly to prevent external interference. You don’t care about interference if you’re charging an electric razor, but you do care if you’re amplifying the signal.
So, the VERY BEST solution even though no one likes it, is to have every pedal on a separate, dedicated, approved, isolated, shielded power supply.
Everyone, even Electro-Harmonix, knows that this is not a practical solution for anyone who has more than three or four pedals on their board. So what do we do?
One option is to use batteries as much as possible!!! Only use a power supply for effects that don’t take batteries and/or their sound is not affected by the power source. Some analogue effects, especially overdrives and some filter effects sound better with Carbon Zinc batteries because of their effect on the load. Some big name players swear by batteries for some of their effects, and it’s not because they can’t afford the high end power supplies. If you have enough money, and most people don’t, you can put a fresh set of batteries in all of your effects once per month, once per week, or even once per gig(!), depending on your budget and how often you play.
Some effects’ tones, usually digital, memory, and/or modulation, aren’t affected by using a battery, however using a battery even with those takes them out of the power circuit and reduces sources of interference. Every effect you take out of the power chain is one less possible source of interference.
So, let’s say you decide to go with a mix of batteries and power supplies. I think that’s what many pros end up with. What’s the best way to handle the power supplies. Again, it’s best to go with dedicated power supplies. If you have most or many of your pedals on batteries and only a few that have to use power supplies then it makes that solution easier.
Let’s say you REALLY DON’T LIKE having to deal with all of those power supplies, then you want to use an ISOLATED power supply rather than a chained power supply. An isolated power supply provides separate, isolated outputs to the pedals. Each pedal gets its own power line which is isolated from all of the other lines. This also allows for different power draws on each line. Even with this solution, you might still get “cross talk” between power lines that are running parallel to each other and to the signal cables.
Next cheapest? Daisy chained power lines. It is possible to daisy chain all of your power supplies if they are all the same voltage. This solution is the easiest one to manage. It’s the cheapest. It often works, especially if you’re not trying to do too many pedals AND they all play nice. However, it is fraught with problems. Of course, all pedals in the chain will be putting noise into the signal. Some pedals are worse than others at PUTTING noise onto the line, and some are worse than others at PICKING UP noise from their power line.
Another problem with daisy chained power supplies is that you have to ADD UP ALL of the amperage for all of the pedals on that line. If the total mA draw of all of the pedals exceeds the mA of the supply, then unpredictable things can happen. Sometimes, the power draw changes depending on the pedals settings, so it might work in one configuration – like “low gain”, but not in another – like “high gain”. Sometimes one pedal might be affected. Sometimes the entire power supply will just cut out. Just imagine that all the lights come on and everything seems cool until you stack your distortions. You step on that second one and the whole power supply switches off because that one effect on that one setting took it over the edge. Not cool.[/quote]
-=Gabriel=- -
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