Home › Forums › Vintage EHX › History of Small Clones – identifying / categorizing, sonic differences, etc

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  • February 24, 2012 at 6:09 am #82198
    BigStone
    Participant

    I just spent some time searching this forum to try to learn more about Small Clones. Found some info but I’m still not clear about some things.

    As I understand it, the Small Clones from the early `80’s have a clear status lamp and later ones have a red status lamp. Otherwise they would appear to look the same on the outside. Correct?

    What years were the Small Clones manufactured?

    I hear people mentioning a “re-issue” Small Clone and it appears to look exactly like the older ones. Does “re-issue” refer to all the ones with the red status lamp? Or…?

    I have several “old” Small Clones here. Not sure of the age, the pots do not have date codes on them. At least one of them is at least 10 years old I believe. Someone had told me to check to see if these units had the MN3007 chip inside since the MN3007 is supposed to be a good chip and was eventually replaced with a cheaper, worse performing chip. Is this correct? The units I have here DO have the MN3007 chip.

    Then I read another post on the forum here talking about a Reticon chip. I did not see any Reticon chips in my Small Clones here.

    So… is there a direct correlation between chips and whether or not the unit is an “original” or “re-issue”? Etc? In other words, do the originals have the Reticon and the reissues have the MN3007? Or…?

    I realize that beauty is in the ear of the beholder, it doesn’t make much sense to ask if one version of an effect sounds “better” than another version. However, I’m curious as to what the general public perception is regarding the older Small Clones verses the “re-issue”, and/or the Reticon verses the MN3007, etc. Sonic differences?

    One thing I can say, I feel that the MN3007 units I have here sound excellent. I’m very happy with them. I’d love to know how they compare to older units. Would anyone care to shed a bit of light on this? Being that I dig the units I have here, my only thought is that if indeed the older units sound really good, they can’t really sound “better”, just different. And I’m curious as to what that difference would be.

    At least with some other EHX models, like Small Stones for instance, it’s easier to tell the version just by looking at the outer casing. The Small Clones… is the only telling factor (from the outside) just the color of the status lamp? Any other way to identify them without pulling them apart?

    I’d love to get the full history of the Small Clone overall, what configurations were made between what years, how they differed sonically (if at all) and so on.

    Thanks!

    February 24, 2012 at 11:04 am #117005
    The EH Man
    Moderator

    The vintage units have a smaller LED than the reissues. That’s the easiest way to tell as long as it’s original. Someone could drill out and add a larger LED to the vintage ones. If you look at the circuit boards you’ll see a large square hole in the reissue for the footswitch.
    I’ve been collecting some info on them for a while and there seems to be no rhyme or reason as to when the MN3007 or the SAD1024 was used. The same goes with the Mini-Chorus or Full Chorus labeling. There were also some that had circuit boards that wouldn’t take the SAD1024.
    The reissue is pretty much the same as the vintage unit.

    February 24, 2012 at 3:14 pm #117010
    BigStone
    Participant

    Thanks!!!

    One last question:

    What are the sonic differences between units with the MN3007 and units with the SAD1024, if any?

    Thank you.

    February 24, 2012 at 3:17 pm #117011
    The EH Man
    Moderator

    Never tried them side by side, sorry.

    February 24, 2012 at 3:26 pm #117014
    BigStone
    Participant

    Thank you!

    How would you describe the public perception of which chip is “better” or more preferred in the Small Clone specifically? Just curious.

    Again, one thing I feel pretty confident about, the MN3007 Small Clones I have here sound absolutely great. They ARE “re-issue” units since they do have the little square cut out in the circuit board for the switch.

    I’ve played with lots of different choruses over the years and these “re-issue” Small Clones, in my opinion, have no weaknesses whatsoever.

    So of course my curiosity gets the best of me and makes me wonder why guys are asking over twice the price for older “non-re-issue” units. This would tend to suggest that the public perception is that the older ones sound “better”. Or…. is it really JUST Kurt Cobain??? :)

    February 24, 2012 at 3:33 pm #117015
    The EH Man
    Moderator

    I have no idea how people come up with their perceptions.

    As for price, it’s simply the old “vintage vs reissue” thing. How much cooler are you for having an original unit instead of a reissue?

    February 24, 2012 at 3:57 pm #117016
    BigStone
    Participant

    I dig it. Makes sense.

    Did any of the Small Clone re-issues ever come with a chip OTHER than the MN3007 or SAD1024? I think I had read somewhere that there was another chip that came along later on that was cheaper and yielded lesser sonic performance (MN3207 I think?).. did any of the Small Clone re-issues use this or any other “lesser” chip?

    Because if all the re-issues have the MN3007 and sound great like the ones I have here, then I suppose it’s safe to say that you can’t go wrong with any re-issue unit.

    Previously when I was scouring Ebay for a good Small Clone, I felt like I was rolling the dice and wasn’t sure what “version” or what chip I’d be getting and if it would sound as good as the one MN3007 Small Clone my buddy had.

    So, in sum, do all the re-issues have the MN3007, or should we be aware that some MAY have a “lesser” chip?

    EH Man, thanks so much for all your help.

    February 24, 2012 at 3:58 pm #117017
    The EH Man
    Moderator

    I believe the reissues only used the MN3007.

    February 24, 2012 at 5:14 pm #117018
    fiveways
    Member

    Also some of the models with “lesser” chips sound just as good. Tolerance in electronics makes every unit unique. Try as many reissues as you can and pick the one that sounds best to you.

    Seriously, I’m a dude that hooks up 8 in a row. All of them will sound close, no 2 completely alike and some will speak to you more then others will.

    February 24, 2012 at 5:25 pm #117019
    BigStone
    Participant
    Quote:
    …Try as many reissues as you can and pick the one that sounds best to you… Seriously, I’m a dude that hooks up 8 in a row. All of them will sound close, no 2 completely alike and some will speak to you more then others will.

    I dig it. I agree. I do this as well. :)

    I just remembered… you can still buy a brand new Small Clone re-issue, I see them advertised. Are these still currently in production or am I just seeing old stock being advertised?

    If these ARE still being produced, how might the brand spankin’ new ones differ from ones that are 10 years old… if at all?

    I certainly dig your point about just listening to everything and letting your EARS make the decisions. I’m totally about that. But at the same time it’s interesting to at least have some idea of the history and what’s under the hood of certain period units etc.

    May 25, 2012 at 8:56 am #117602
    bzuuuuu
    Participant

    Hi BigStone,

    I’ve compiled a set of answers that should sort out the majority of your questions.

    The original Small Clone was manufactured from 1979 until 1983 (when the original EH brand went out of business).

    The vintage units have a clear and smaller (3mm) LED versus the red and larger (5mm) LED in the reissues. Also, the originals don’t have a dash mark (-) separating the words FULL and CHORUS.

    The reissues have FULL-CHORUS (with the dash) written on it.

    All MINI-CHORUS Small Clones out there are vintage units and apparently, the earliest ones ever produced. The MINI and FULL versions also share the same circuit and components.

    From 1979 to early 1981, EH used either the MN3007 delay chip or the RETICON SAD1024 one (the rarest). Although subtle, there’s definitely sonic differences between both. However, the most sought after unit is the 1024 one, mostly because this was the version used by Nirvana’s Kurt Cobain on the “Nevermind” recording and tour, as well as during the “MTV Unplugged” sessions.

    I’d say the SAD1024 delay chip is more “watery” sounding and adds a slight “boost” to the signal, while the MN3007 allows higher levels and less noise without signal clipping. No version is “better” than the other and it all comes down to personal preference, IMO.

    The reissue Small Clone sounds great, too. And it’s 100% true bypass (3PDT blue switch) unlike the originals which use a FET switch. I’ve heard about a few reissue units using the MN3207 chip but I’ve never come across one.

    I own 3 Small Clone units: A mid 1980, Full Chorus w/ RETICON SAD1024 chip, an early 1981 Full Chorus w/ MN3007 chip and a 2006 reissue w/ the MN3007 chip.

    Hope this helps! =)

    May 25, 2012 at 3:55 pm #117608
    0xo0
    Participant
    Quote:
    All MINI-CHORUS Small Clones out there are vintage units and apparently, the earliest ones ever produced. The MINI and FULL versions also share the same circuit and components.

    That’s not true. My Mini-Chorus version has a pot date in late 1983, probably among the very last pedals made in the original era. It has the Reticon SAD1024 in it too. I’m pretty sure I remember Ron saying that he has one just like it too. I THINK I’ve actually seen vintage units with the “Full-Chorus” too, complete with the dash. I’m not 100% sure about that though.

    May 25, 2012 at 4:00 pm #117609
    The EH Man
    Moderator

    That’s true. I’ve seen SC pedals with Mini-Chorus and 1983 pots. One was MN3007 and the other had an SAD1024A. THere’s really no rhyme or reason on those things. Here’s the info I have compiled so far:

    Small Clone 1983 cylindrical Mini-Chorus, MN3007
    Small Clone 1378044 cylindrical MN3007
    Small Clone 1378048 cylindrical MN3007 only, no SAD1024 option on board
    Small Clone 1378121 cylindrical MN3007 only, no SAD1024 option on board
    Small Clone 1378121 cylindrical Full Chorus, SAD1024
    Small Clone 1378134 MN3007, Full Chorus
    Small Clone 1378134 cylindrical MN3007
    Small Clone 1378339 cylindrical Mini-Chorus, SAD1024

    So, the earliest I have listed is 1980 and it’s an MN3007. No SAD1024A until 1981.

    May 25, 2012 at 4:30 pm #117611
    0xo0
    Participant

    For a while, I was operating on the assumption that the “Mini-Chorus” was actually only on later ones. Like maybe all of the later ones after some point were Minis. I kinda sorta maybe discarded that assumption, but I think it may have only been because it became clear to me that it doesn’t have anything to do with what’s inside.

    May 25, 2012 at 6:50 pm #117614
    Effectsiation
    Member
    Quote:
    For a while, I was operating on the assumption that the “Mini-Chorus” was actually only on later ones. Like maybe all of the later ones after some point were Minis. I kinda sorta maybe discarded that assumption, but I think it may have only been because it became clear to me that it doesn’t have anything to do with what’s inside.

    I imagine that “Mini Chorus” would have been on the pedals during the years the Bad Stone was in production, and perhaps after production ceased they started writing “Full Chorus”.

    However, I don’t have production data on the Bad Stone to know when they stopped production of it to see if my theory is correct.

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