Home › Forums › Ideas / Suggestions / Feedback › Big Muff Reissues
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February 19, 2010 at 12:00 am #107685julianModerator
Hey, Aen’s a nice guy. Didn’t realize he was Dwarfcraft.
I think it is more of a testament to how quick you can learn how to build pedals more than anything.
And that weird-ass pedals with cool graphics sell.
February 19, 2010 at 2:42 am #107688Ned FlandersModeratorHe makes some ok sounding stuff and he does seem like a nice guy, I was just using him as an example. His assembly is very poor though, well it was/is but lately, like the past month or so I have seen some better enclosures being done. Its the circuit assembly and wiring that is horrid though.
If people are happy paying 150-180 for that then that’s their concern. I certainly wouldn’t pay that much for a cobbled together pedal by someone who’s only been making pedals for 2 years or less.
If he, and some others, just spent a little more time on quality and precision they would have an ok product.
What I said still stands though. I know a few overnight solder jockeys now classified as respected “boutiquers” and I know other guys who have been designing pedals for over 30 years and are EE’s who get little to no recognition for their contributions to the pedal world.Its that kinda thing that bugs me to a certain degree, seeing inexperienced people sell there “quality products” to the public and get all this recognition and respect yet they know basically very little about building pedals, they are just tweakers.
I could sell my pedals under my own name, they would look and sound a shit load better than some of the stuff on the market today but I don’t want to be classified as one of them people I’m complaining about as I haven’t been making pedals for 5 years yet, although I have been into electronics since I was a kid. If I were to sell my pedal designs I would license the design out to another company and have it be totally anonymous. If no company wanted to do that I would consider making them myself but that would take a lot of procrastination and consideration.
I have no problem with DIYers selling pedals, that would make me a hypocrite as I’ve done so myself in the past. There’s some really good quality stuff out there like skinpimp, John Lyons, SUF etc they put in some real effort in their production and deserve recognition for that. Its just the crookedly drilled enclosures, paper decal, taped up snapped of perf board, and spaghetti wiring pedals I don’t like seeing people pay $180 for , its a rip IMO!!!
If you’re gonna make pedals, do it right and have some pride in your workmanship and patience in your work!
June 6, 2010 at 7:25 am #103065TedintheShedMemberQuote:Quote:You think people pay big bucks for a ramshead because of the looks?? I’m sure it does have something to do with it which is why you don’t see the V3s, I think it is, go for as much. I think it’s pretty absurd to think the newer muff’s sound as good as the older ones though…except for the tone wicker which has a pretty good sound. Not that I’m bashing the newer muffs, they have their own sound and place but I think the use of cheaper components and such has had a pretty big impact on todays muffs.On another note, for you rat fans I hear they’re making a faithful recreation of one of their older whiteface rats. Pretty excited about that one and wish more makers would do this.
Firstly yes I do… there are plenty of boutique companies that will build you a Ram’s head clone … or you can buy kits from GGG and build any version you like. I’ve seen comparison videos where it’s impossible to tell the difference. So yeah, of course it’s for the looks/vibe/vintage mojo/collectability/investent. …. which is fine, I understand that, I’d buy one for the same reasons.
I personally think most triangle muffs and russian muffs sound pretty awful and have no problem stating that a BM with T/W is a ‘better’ sounding pedal to my ears. Each version has it’s own character, but you can’t really say that one is better than the other. …. it’s too subjective and not ‘absurd’ at all to me, I wonder if we’ll think it’s absurd in 10-15 years when the latest NYC Big Muff becomes a sought after pedal? Heck, 5 years ago people couldn’t give green sovteks away, you could pick them up for $50, they still sound the same now as they did then, so you tell me what’s going on there?
To answer the bolded area, bassist discovered them and due to the advent of message boards the word spread quickly. Prices started to rise though a little bit longer than five years ago though.
July 9, 2010 at 1:50 pm #110082ZippsterMemberQuote:Quote:Very true.Actually I havent a/b tested any other muffs with my black russian one. As soon as I tried the 2000 russian one it was exactly what I wanted. I just clicked it on and turned the knobs to whatever sounded good at the moment and Boom! exactly the tone I was looking for. later I tried the current USA BMP and little muff and a few others but they didnt have what i was going for. So I went back to the russian. But I never really tested side by side. But like I said I agree that every version is differnt and subject to taste. And the whole “mojo” statement thing I was saying is from talking to other people who shelled out big bucks for a vintage triangle rams head something or other because Gilmour or someone used it on this or that recording. They bought it unheard and untested because its mythic. Its also very true that with the russian ones you can be lucky and get a good one or you can get a crap one. this seems to be true for the USA ones as well.
I wonder if someone side by side tested lets say 10 of the legendary v2 BMP’s how much varience would there be between each one? Odds are you would find a favorite among the crowd.I just did this recently with seven V2 Muffs and 10 of the 1990s Sovteks. I recorded it, but listening back, I’m not sure too many people would notice the differences from one to another, except for two of them. I can hear the differences when I play in front of my amp, but with a backing track or band, not sure many people could tell. The Sovteks did have a lot more variance than I thought, listening back, but again, with a band playing, not sure sure you could hear much of the treble/bass/clarity differences in an mp3.
Now, listening to a V2 and a reissue – Huge difference. Listen to the comparison clip 1 for each here if you want to hear why people shell out big bucks for older Muffs.
http://www.kitrae.net/music/Music_mp3_Big_Muff_Sound.htmlAfter having listened to all of your clips I concur that the v2 was certainly better, but for me at least certainly not $300 worth of better than a current Little Big Muff. Some might be able to hear the subtle differences (NYC Ri was certainly more hollow sounding than the others) but I have to admit I really struggled to hear much difference between the rams head and lbm. All the better for me – I’ll throw the saved cash at echo flangers and the like.
October 18, 2010 at 2:24 am #112022EHXpedalsfanMemberQuote:Quote:As someone who owns many vintage Big Muffs, I can tell you it has nothing to do with the looks. It’s all about the sound. My favorite looking Muff is actually the current V3 look. I like all of the Big Muffs, but the sound of a V1 or V2 is like night and day to a V9 reissue.Reissues would be interesting, but it is not possible to make a production pedal that will have the same sound as a vintage one without the old components and transistors, and they are no longer available. EHX would have to pick a particular Triangle and RH example to copy as well, since the tones vary so much from unit to unit, and they would have to use modern components like the cloners do.
Basically what you would have would be a BYOC Large Beaver in a vintage style Big Muff box. That won’t have the mojo a vintage Muff tone has, but a BYOC gets 90-95% there anyway, which is good enough for most people, especially people who have never owned a vintage Muff, but want one. I don’t think it would hurt the collectible market at all since those guys will just claim the new ones don’t have the sound since they use new components. I think it would be a good idea for EH, and I know it would be successful. They would have to release them in the old style boxes with the exact graphics to do it right. Some minor change on each to make them externally different from the originals would be good, like an LED, and an internal change like true bypass, so EH could claim they are “better” than the originals.
ok, I believe that for you it is all about the sound, but can I suggest to you that you are in a very small minority? …. and the reason they sell for high prices on ebay is due in a big part to vintage guitar equipment collectors and investors that are not buying them for the sound.
……If EHX did re-issue them, why would they need to have ‘the exact graphics and original case’ like you suggest for them to be a success if it’s only the sound that people are buying them for? … You know why!!!!! looks, looks, looks.
they go for so much in online auctions simply because so many people want them, and the amount that want them just for tone are certainly not the minority. if it was all for looks, no one would care about the clone companies, because none of the clones ive seen look at all like the original, which doesn’t bother me or anyone that i know who owns the clones. fans of pink floyd and david gilmour are probably a majority of the people wanting to buy one because of how extensively he used the rams head and triangle, the pedals would sell extremely well as reissues and it would be for the tone, not the looks. they could manufacture them with a pink and purple casing with cows on it for all i care, i’d still buy it.
October 18, 2010 at 2:59 am #112023KitraeMemberI think strictly for marketing reasons any vintage BMP reissue should “look” exactly like the original. The current vintage pedal reissue market (MXR, ProCo, Ibanez, Colorsound, DOD, et cetera) have proven that works. People are buying the reissue script Dynacomp, like me for example, because it is made with the exact script version circuit so it sounds like the old one – and looks like the old one. There was clearly a market for the real vintage script font pedals and MXR took advantage of that and reissued it. Replicas of the vintage version were already being made by boutique makers using their own graphics, so there would have been no point in MXR making a reissue that had the sound of the original but did not look like the original. You could already have that. The same goes for the vintage BMP replica market. There are dozens of makers and you can currently get just about any vintage BMP version circuit.
When I think back to when I first played a Big Muff in the mid to late 80s, I would have loved to have my own Triangle Big Muff, but there was no place to get them back then (no local shops sold vintage pedals, no ebay), and I would not have been able to afford one anyway. I sure loved the way it soundeded – was blown away actually – but I loved the looks and cool knobs too. Had there been an exact reissue from EHX at a decent price I would have jumped on that in a heartbeat.
Chances of this happening are slim I think. Mike Matthews does not seem to be interested in the reissue market. He has said EXH already has the Big Muff territory covered and he prefers to make pedals that he can continue to make for many years rather than limited edition short runs. He also said if they could make a Big Muff sound better than the ones they already sell they would be doing it, so the folks at EHX must not care for the sound of any of the vintage units. I love the sounds of the current Big Muffs, but they are like night and day to the vintage V1, V2, and V3 BMPs I own.
October 18, 2010 at 3:07 am #112024electro-melxModeratoroh, I haven’t been in this here thread for a while… so a while back (out of curiosity more than anything) I built myself a ‘violet rams head’ using a GGG board… and I have to say it sounds really good. I know it’s not ‘vintage correct’ as such because I used wima box caps and other modern parts but I stuck to the values on the GGG ‘bill of materials’ .. I tried loads of different transistors and ended up using 2N5089’s which sounded the best to me …. the differences between it and the RI’s? the biggest difference is that it still sounds good if you turn the gain down, even right down… and when you turn the tone anti-clockwise it seems to have more midrange than the recent RI’s, less scoop to my ears.
here’s some pics of the board and the finished pedal.
I just need to paint some cows on it now!
October 18, 2010 at 4:27 am #112025CryabetesParticipantQuote:The current vintage pedal reissue market (MXR, ProCo, Ibanez, Colorsound, DOD, et cetera) have proven that works.Are there DOD reissues other than the 250 overdrive and the 440 env. filter? I mean, most of the FX line is still in working order but reissues of the FX45/FX76/FX32/FX33 in proper cases/TB stuff would be awesome. or a actual proper working/no-tone-suck version of the FX22?
I’d buy those.October 18, 2010 at 12:42 pm #112027KitraeMemberThe yellow box 250 is what I have seen. MXR has the Script Dyna, Phase 45, Distortion Plus, Flanger, Micro Chorus. ProCo has the LM308 Whiteface Rat reissue. Ibanez has the TS808 and TS9 reissues. I’m sure there are others, but those are the ones from the top of my head.
October 19, 2010 at 9:21 pm #112042Ned FlandersModeratorEHX is about the future, not the past, that is why Mike wont make vintage correct RI’s IMO.
And the RI’s (other EHX pedals) that do exist are classics. Not every minor change in the vintage BMP’s are classics IMO, not to mention all the one off big muffs out there that someone accidentally put some wrong values in and that 1 and only pedal may be viewed as a classic by some, how is that going to be reissued?
No two muffs sound the same and I’ve only ever heard one stock green sovtek that sounded good, the rest sound crud, I assume the good one is a fluke, not to schem, a mistake. Similar can be said of various other muffs.
IMO BMP’s got good from the IC onwards, then the 3034, these two are the best muffs and what I consider classics. I really dont care for ramsheads muffs except one version, or the triangle muffs whatsoever.
October 22, 2010 at 4:47 am #112083KitraeMemberWell, I would make it easy for EHX and pick the best Muff from my collection for them to clone and reissue
October 23, 2010 at 11:07 pm #112116ExplorerMemberI’m sorry to say, Kit, that your website allowed me to pick up an amazingly great clone of my favorite BMP, and more versatile and smaller besides. It’s interesting and helpful to read opinions regarding the sound and usability of Muff clones from the point of view of someone who has a lot of experience with the real thing.
Given the current availability of good Muff sounds from a variety of sources, I can see EHX not wanting to invest the time and/or money in trying to reproduce the given sound of any of the past versions. Why try to compete with all kinds of small builders in a small pond, when you can make something unique like a HOG… or even just a Freeze… and be in a pond by yourself?
Would I pick up a Muff from EHX at this point? Sure, especially if it was something new which hadn’t been cloned to death in terms of sound…..
October 24, 2010 at 7:31 pm #112135KitraeMemberThat’s exactly why I believe EHX won’t do it. But I think EHX is in their own pond, and has always been. And I think reissues are a different animal and serve a different customer than boutique pedals. I suspect the boutique pedal buyers are not the crowd buying all these reissues anyway. They will likely be the ones who bash them on TGP and HC for not being accurate replicas
It would just be nice to see EHX reap the benefits of their own past work, but as I said, I don’t think they are interested.
Which clone did you buy?
October 24, 2010 at 10:03 pm #112142dmc777MemberQuote:oh, I haven’t been in this here thread for a while… so a while back (out of curiosity more than anything) I built myself a ‘violet rams head’ using a GGG board… and I have to say it sounds really good. I know it’s not ‘vintage correct’ as such because I used wima box caps and other modern parts but I stuck to the values on the GGG ‘bill of materials’ .. I tried loads of different transistors and ended up using 2N5089’s which sounded the best to me …. the differences between it and the RI’s? the biggest difference is that it still sounds good if you turn the gain down, even right down… and when you turn the tone anti-clockwise it seems to have more midrange than the recent RI’s, less scoop to my ears.here’s some pics of the board and the finished pedal.
I just need to paint some cows on it now!
I have 2 BMP boards I’m about to put together. 1 is a tonepad board and one is a GGG board. I’m thinking about building a triangle and Civil War muff. What VHE values did find worked best in your violet?
I will revert my previous statement that it’s “absurd” to think the vintage ones sell so much because of the looks. But I don’t think they sell so high strictly because of the looks. Sound, collectors market, and looks all play a big role but the sound is the biggest part. Same goes for the vintage green electric mistress. People don’t pay for those for the looks for sure. It’s about the sound that the current rI DEM can’t replicate….though it does get close.
I think to NOT reissue pedals is a bad move for EHX. Personally, I haven’t been too intrigued by anything they’ve released lately except for maybe the freeze although they have come up with some brilliant pedals. Just nothing I would use. They could also reissue the pedals looks and all and sell them for half of what the boutique makers charge. It really doesn’t take alot of time and money to build a big muff. Like Kit said, he could lone them his ramshead or give them the specs on the transistors and other components. Make it true bypass and add an led plus original graphics and could sell them for a minimum 80.00 and still atleast double what they put into it. Or they could sell them for about 150.00 or so and I guarantee they’d sell.
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